Thomson's 6809 based computers

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tjewell
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Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by tjewell »

Hi all, a little off topic this, forgive me ...

eBay is tempting me into buying a Thomson computer from the mid-80s (there's a range, here's a typical example - http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=643). They seem to be pretty good bargains, perhaps the French aren't as nostalgic about their old computers?

Anyway, I mention this because they're 6809 based computers, but I think the similarity with the Dragon ends there (oh, and Microsoft basic too). The specs are quite interesting - 40 column display, light pen, 16 colours ... is it all proprietary Thomson technology or anything 'off the shelf' in there I wonder?

Anyone met one in the flesh?

Tony.
Rink
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by Rink »

Never come across one before - but my vote is for 'get it'. Then you can tell us all about them. :)
tjewell
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by tjewell »

Okay, it took me nearly 3 years to find the right machine, but I'm now the proud owner of a Thomson TO-7 - the rarer German version with a QWERTY keyboard. If anyone wants to know more about it or would like me to try anything on it, please let me know!
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snarkhunter
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by snarkhunter »

Hello,

I understand you did get a "TO 7/70" computer, or is it really "just " a "TO 7"? . Both used to be obsolete systems almost after being released. The only "added factor" they could provide was the optical pen as part of their standard features. And their keyboard was still a bit nicer than the soft rubber one the company later used on MO5 computers. This brand was a main - almost "mandatory" - choice for public schools. And it was the only decent personal French computer available at the time. Many more popped up after 1985, due to the outburst of brands and models, including the rise of the MSX standard (... which proved a standard for not such a long time!).

But they never scored so well, and they were not cheap by any means either (I mean, considering the price/features ratio). I believe the resident BASIC provided was some kind of standard MS stuff.

Fact is: There were so many home computers available at that time that there was little market space for such a machine.

Some technical data will be found here:
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/com ... st=1&c=643

To me, the only interesting feature of such a machine was its using a Motorola 6809 chip, just like our beloved Dragons. But technical features were quite poor otherwise (apart from the interesting RAM statistics).
tjewell
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by tjewell »

Hi!

It's the original, humble, TO7 (less colours, less RAM). I never met this machine back in the 80s, it never crossed the channel, so your comments are interesting about where it fitted into the French market at the time. I wonder how expensive it was compared with the Dragon?

I'll file it under 'interesting' - the keyboard is horrible, like an Atari 400, but the lightpen is kinda cute. It's got MS Basic on a cartridge. Graphics resolution is better than the Dragon - but as you say, I'm probably not comparing like with like, as this was a more expensive computer.

I bought it purely because of the 6809, as machines based on this processor are less common (and hence, to me, a little more interesting!) - now I need to hunt down a Fujitsu FM-7! But don't worry, none of these will budge the beloved Dragon from the top spot in my affections!
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snarkhunter
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by snarkhunter »

tjewell wrote:I wonder how expensive it was compared with the Dragon?
I will try to check and I might be able to shed some light here: I still have a collection of 80's French magazines ("Jeux & Stratégie") at home that might have featured some ads for this computer as well. If so, then there will be the standard retail price printed, too.

You may want to try and check for yourself: You will find a link to downloads of scanned issues of this magazine below,

http://www.abandonware-magazines.org/af ... esentation

At the moment, I cannot tell which issues to check, though. But searching based on original release date might help.
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tormod
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by tormod »

Issue 23, page 17 has a nice comparison table of computers, including the TO7 and the Dragon 32!

BTW, they conclude the Dragon 32 is a better buy for gaming than the Commodore 64... Maybe due to the availability of "wargames" and the lower price.
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snarkhunter
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by snarkhunter »

tormod wrote:Issue 23, page 17 has a nice comparison table of computers, including the TO7 and the Dragon 32!
Thank you very much for taking the time to search the actual issue!
tormod wrote:BTW, they conclude the Dragon 32 is a better buy for gaming than the Commodore 64... Maybe due to the availability of "wargames" and the lower price.
Yes, and this may have been true, based on their own criteria about "good games". Here, I have to tell this magazine was all about strategy and "mind" games (i.e. primarily, logical & mathematical puzzles, along with classical board games and wargames ; later on, they also tackled many games from a number of foreign countries, then Role-Playing Games, and they switched to computer games around the mid-80's, or electronic board game systems). A fair share of the magazine's pages consisted in columns dedicated to Chess, Checkers, Go, Reversi, Awale , etc. Some of the authors were renowned players in their own field. They also used to analyse and comment the style of some of chess greatest champions.

I may help you understand the content of some articles, if needed. Unfortunately, it is French only, so maybe a bit restricted at the moment!

There has never been any other French magazine that may be compared to "J&S". They were really one of a kind, which I stiil miss. But I understand things have become quite different over the last 30 years!

... Who plays "Squad Leader" or "Traveler" any more these days?!

They also wrote much about RPGs when these got popular. Many were covered.
Each issue used to feature a complex 2-page maze designed by a French author. Sometimes with added complexity such as extra rules that would wander near adventure/role-playing borders. I was really fond of those at the time.

They also dedicated a lot of time and space to high level programmable calculators (first TI-59 & HP-67, then HP41-C later on). Or even to BASIC programs (usualy designed for Apple II or some smaller Casio calculators).

Please don't be afraid to ask any question you may have about the content.
tjewell
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by tjewell »

Oh, well found! Doing a rough 10F = £1, I can see the T07 is up there in the BBC Model B price range, and quite a bit more expensive than the Dragon was here.

I can't help be amused by the fact that whereas the TO7 gets a 'tres bien', the Dragon gets an 'excellent'. I forget what a huge difference the real keyboard and nearly 32K of usable RAM made to the Dragon back in the day. Now, I'm easily swayed by a pretty face - I love the novelty of the light pen and like the higher resolution and number of colours on the TO7. But I can't imagine what it would be like to use for real - the keyboard is horrible, and 8K isn't much space, especially with Basic. The Dragon, however, by the standards of the time, is a properly usable machine.
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snarkhunter
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Re: Thomson's 6809 based computers

Post by snarkhunter »

I believe the main reason for the Dragon getting good scores in spite of obvious technical limitations and flaws (especially in the graphics area) was the large software offering when it eventually became available in France. There was plenty of software available, as much in the gaming area as in the more serious applications/small business ones.

And the most powerful computer will never be much without a decent software library. Which the Dragon had, especially when considering the huge Co-Co software library, part of it was already known as being quite compatible. That was a definite asset to the Welsh beast!

And, yes, the nice keyboard was another important asset. It was alsmost obvious this had been designed with "Apple II" standards in mind. I remember so many personal computers were struggling with painful rubber keyboards around the mid-80's (... remember Oric, Jupiter Ace, etc?).

And another asset was the nice resident MS BASIC that was available, with a full set of graphic/music commands. Just remember everything that was lacking from Applesoft's Integer Basic!

I'd say the very nice marks Dragon got in this magazine were mainly due to:
- The many adventure games available
- Easy programming of the system (both using the resident BASIC and a few programming packages and languages that were available)

The Dragon sure was lacking in the "flashy entertainment" department, especially when compared with such machines as C20/C64, ZX Spectrum and MSX computers, but it was quite easygoing when it comes to writing programs - and learning how to do so!

It was no Dai, no BBC Electron, no Apple II, of course, but it still scored pretty well in the "Great Fun Guaranteed" department.
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